TOWN OF DUCK
TOWN COUNCIL
REGULAR MID MONTH MEETING
February 20, 2008
The Town Council for the Town of Duck convened at the Duck Municipal Offices at 1:00 p.m. on Wednesday, February 20. 2008.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Neil Morrison; Mayor Pro Tempore Monica Thibodeau; Councilor Nancy Caviness; and Councilor Bart Smith.
COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Councilor Dave Wessel.
OTHERS PRESENT: Town Manager Christopher J. Layton, Director of Community Development Andy Garman; Fire Chief Donna Black; Deputy Fire Chief William Walker; Zoning Technician Sandy Cady; Building Inspector Cory Tate; and Town Clerk Lori Kopec.
ABSENT: Town Attorney Donald I. McRee, Jr.
Mayor Morrison called the meeting to order at 1:02 p.m. He stated it was nice to see so many people in the audience.
DISCUSSION OF PROPOSED BEACH MARKER PROJECT
Deputy Fire Chief William Walker was recognized to speak. Deputy Chief Walker stated that the issue was discussed at the Council’s Retreat. He stated he was recommending using a six (6) inch wide aluminum sign; two (2) sided and reflective; with a 4 x 4 post, and brackets for security purposes as well as to prevent vandalism. He added that approximately fifty-five (55) signs would be needed to mark the east/west streets and beach accesses. He stated that a 4 x 4 post would be needed for each post at a cost of $7.50 per post. He added that the mounting brackets would cost $12.00 each and the lag bolts would cost $3.00. He stated that Duck stickers could be put on the signs for $1.00 per piece. He presented Council and the audience with a sample of the sign that was presented at the Retreat. He stated that he was able to negotiate the cost and came out with a total of $4,700 for fifty-five (55) signs. He stated that he researched the issue further and was able to get a lower price of $3,272.50 for signs without a border.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked what the height of the signs would be. Deputy Chief Walker stated they would be approximately twenty-four (24) to thirty-six (36) inches based on the length of the address name. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked if the difference in savings was due to the signs not having any detail around them. Deputy Chief Walker stated she was correct. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked if they would be made of the same material as a street sign. Deputy Chief Walker stated they would be .80 thickness aluminum without a ridge around the edge. Town Manager Layton stated the signs were essentially an elongated version of the reflective signs. Deputy Chief Walker pointed out that the beach markers would be of a thicker material.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau stated that she liked saving money by going with the plain version of the markers. She thought Council had discussed not having the Duck sticker on them as they could peel off. Deputy Chief Walker agreed. He stated he had put in the sample with the sticker to show Council what it would look like. Mayor Morrison thought the sticker would make the marker more appealing to thieves.
Mayor Morrison asked if the markers would hold up with the type of winds the Outer Banks experiences. Deputy Chief Walker thought they would hold up fairly well, but noted that they would have to be replaced approximately every five (5) years due to the sand and storms. Mayor Morrison clarified that the lower cost was for signs without a border. Deputy Fire Chief Walker stated he was correct and stated it was also for signs without the Duck sticker.
Councilor Caviness asked if Deputy Fire Chief Walker had discussed uniformity with regard to the installation of the posts by the beach walkover steps. Deputy Chief Walker stated he had not. He thought it would be a good idea to have them in the same spot for each walkover. Mayor Morrison asked who would be installing the posts and signs. Town Manager Layton stated that it would be a combination of Town staff as well as temporary help.
Councilor Smith stated he was not in favor of putting things on the beach. He stated that his biggest concern was the placement of the posts on the beach; however, he thought they would be good from a safety standpoint. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau agreed. Town Manager Layton noted that fifty-five (55) signs would be placed over six (6) miles of beach, which would be enough to do what they needed to do. He stated that there would be some attrition from storms but didn’t think there was as much as one may think. He thought they would be stable and far enough back that they wouldn’t be taking a beating constantly.
Councilor Caviness asked if there was a recommendation on how high the signs would be and where the top of the post would be. Town Manager Layton thought the posts would have to be more than eight (8) feet. He stated that the price reflected an eight (8) foot post, but thought it would be much longer to help with vandalism. He thought a ten (10) to twelve (12) foot pole, sunk approximately four (4) feet into the sand would work. Deputy Fire Chief Walker stated that sinking the posts four (4) feet into the sand was recommended by other towns he had contacted.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau clarified that if the posts were taller, they would be less likely to be taken away. Town Manager Layton stated she was correct. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau thought that if the posts were too tall, they wouldn’t look good aesthetically. Councilor Smith stated he would like them about rail height for the walkovers. Fire Chief Donna Black was recognized to speak. Fire Chief Black stated that the signs at the walkovers would be uniform with regard to mounting them on posts. Councilor Smith pointed out that the signs were more for people on the beach. Fire Chief Black agreed. She went on to show Council how she would envision the posts to be installed at walkovers.
Councilor Caviness asked if it would be effective to have the top of the posts be between four (4) and five (5) feet tall. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau stated she would not want the posts taller than five (5) feet. Councilor Smith agreed.
Mayor Morrison asked which way the signs would face. Deputy Fire Chief Walker stated they would face east/west so they could be seen when one walks north or south on the beach.
Councilor Caviness thought that if the top of the post was shorter than four (4) feet for some of the streets that will require a thirty-six (36) inch sign, it would only give twelve (12) inches of room. She stated that she would hate to see the posts be too high. Town Manager Layton stated that ten (10) foot posts could be ordered as they would be put four (4) feet in the ground. He added it would make them no higher than six (6) feet at the top of the post. He stated that they could also be put deeper in the sand as well.
Councilor Smith thought the biggest issue was to make them as unobtrusive as possible. Fire Chief Black stated that they will blend in just like the reflective house signs have. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau clarified that the posts would be salt treated. Town Manager Layton stated she was correct.
Mayor Morrison clarified that a post would be put in approximately every tenth (10th) of a mile. Deputy Fire Chief Walker stated he was correct.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked if areas that have two (2) walkovers, such as the Bayberry Bluff subdivision, would have more than one sign. Town Manager Layton stated that if there were two (2) accesses right next to one another, there would only be one (1) sign. He added that there would be no more than fifty-five (55) signs.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau moved to authorize the purchase of the beach signs as presented with approximately fifty-five (55) signs ordered, along with the pared down version of the signs for a cost of under $3,300.
Motion carried 4-0.
DISCUSSION OF COMMERCIAL SIGNAGE ISSUES
Mayor Morrison stated that the issue was near the end of the Council’s January Retreat agenda. He stated that Council allowed Director Garman to give them a summary of the report at the Retreat and that Director Garman would be presenting his overview at this meeting.
Director of Community Development Andy Garman was recognized to speak. Director Garman stated that signs have been an issue for a long time. He stated that sign issues are ones that staff continue to grapple with. He stated that the biggest issue has been the amortization schedule. He went on to give a short presentation on commercial signage issues to Council and the audience.
Councilor Caviness stated that there is a situation in Town where some people have come into compliance while others haven’t. Town Manager Layton agreed. Director Garman stated it was a fairness issue. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau noted that in some cases there were signs that were permitted but were not permitted properly. Director Garman agreed. He stated he was looking for basic direction from Council.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau clarified that on premise free standing signs would not be permitted after amortization. She thought on premise free standing signs were allowed. Director Garman stated it would only apply to nonconforming signs. Town Manager Layton stated they would be nonconforming until 2010. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau pointed out that the permitting process for Dare County was not good. She stated that, in the past, she had paid for a sign permit to Dare County but never received anything showing that her sign was permitted. She thought a lot of people were in the same boat and may not know they aren’t permitted. Director Garman agreed.
Zoning Technician Sandy Cady was recognized to speak. Zoning Technician Cady stated the amnesty period was put into effect by Council because of the people that may not have known their signs weren’t permitted. She stated that with the amnesty period, people could come in and get things straightened out. She stated that several business owners came in with permits from Dare County. Director Garman stated that generally the people that couldn’t have been permitted under Dare County’s rules were the ones that didn’t come in to follow through with their permits. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau stated that people may not have known they were nonconforming as the Town never told all the businesses to come and see where they stood. She thought people did not know they needed to obtain revised site plans. Director Garman stated he wasn’t sure how things were handled. He stated that once the ordinance was adopted an outreach was sent to every business in Town that they had a certain period of time during the amnesty period to come into compliance. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau disagreed. Director Garman stated that Zoning Technician Cady had examples of businesses that started the permit process but once they obtained more information, they neglected to come back in for their permits.
Don Zerbe of 4 Soundview Trail in Kitty Hawk was recognized to speak. Mr. Zerbe stated that every business had to submit their signage for approval several years ago. Town Manager Layton stated that there was a substantial outreach that had the vast majority of business owners thinking about coming into compliance. He stated that a lot of positive interaction to bring the owners into compliance was achieved, but as the Town got closer to the amortization date, a gap developed. He added that there were business owners that refused to come into compliance.
Councilor Smith wondered if the Planning Board was considering amendments to the ordinance and if it would be prudent to wait until the consideration was complete and then bring it to Council. He thought that a new amortization schedule would need to be brought forward to implement everything. Town Manager Layton asked if the items that the Planning Board was discussing encompassed everything. Director Garman stated it did not encompass every issue that Council was discussing with regard to the issues subject to the amortization schedule. He stated that he wanted to get Council’s input on how strongly they felt about some of the signage issues. He stated that staff was looking to establish a new amortization schedule since it will take more time to advise owners that their signs were nonconforming. He stated that once the schedule has been finalized, another amnesty period will be created for business owners.
Councilor Smith stated that based on input from business owners and the public, new things have come to light that would make sense to have a new schedule. He stated that an amortization schedule should be based on the changes. He didn’t think it was something that the Town wasn’t serious about before. He thought it was more that things changed and now the Town was trying to get it right. Director Garman stated that new information in the presentation will make staff take a hard look at everything that will need to be addressed as far as the amortization schedule.
Councilor Caviness clarified that the responsibility for signs at a shopping complex such as the Waterfront Shops was on each individual shop owner. Director Garman stated it was. Zoning Technician Cady stated it could be done either way – the individual property owners could come in for a sign permit or the owner of the entire property could come in and obtain permits. Councilor Caviness stated that it gets confusing as Council hasn’t gotten into a situation where there were multiple signs involved.
Director Garman asked Council if they wanted to have a general discussion with their thoughts on the issue. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau pointed out that Atlantic Realty and Plum Crazy had to be permitted after the Special Use Permit in 2007. She stated she would feel bad having to tell them that the Town made a mistake. She didn’t know how a town would handle it. She didn’t think anyone had any objection to the look of those two (2) signs as they didn’t seem to be glaring problems. Director Garman stated that he had researched the signage issue. He stated that he found buildings that have signs that extend above the dormer of the roof. He stated that a lot of cases in Duck have buildings with porches and canopies where the signs were attached to the edge of the roof. Town Manager Layton asked if the was the confusion that led to some of the businesses getting permitted. Director Garman thought it was likely.
Councilor Caviness wondered if there were any building code guidelines with regard to signs above a roof line and storm force winds. Building Inspector Cory Tate was recognized to speak. Building Inspector Tate stated that there were no prescriptive requirements in the building code for that. He stated that for general construction, Chapter 17 gives requirements for wind loads, but it would be hard for an engineer to design something like that which would resist the forces listed in Chapter 17. Town Manager Layton asked what Chapter 17 applied to. Building Inspector Tate stated that the design criteria applied to anything constructed in a high wind zone.
Councilor Smith pointed out that if a person was at eye level with signs such as the ones for Atlantic Realty and Plum Crazy, there would still be roof area above them. He stated that signs at the Osprey Shops do not have that. He thought from an aesthetic point of view, it made a big difference. Councilor Caviness asked if the signs at Wee Winks Square would be described as attached to porches. Director Garman thought they would be. Councilor Caviness stated that the signs at the Osprey Shops look like billboard-type signs.
Councilor Smith thought having the roof above the sign would make a big difference. Councilor Caviness agreed. Don Zerbe pointed out that three (3) of the signs at the Osprey Shops were parallel to the roof while one (1) was perpendicular, which made it look bad. Councilor Smith agreed. Councilor Caviness pointed out that the Angelo’s Pizza sign was just tacked onto the side of the building, where signs at other shops define where the store was. Director Garman suggested sending the issue to the Planning Board for them to come up with a solution regarding signs on or at the roof line. Mayor Morrison thought it was good idea. He stated that he did not see a problem with the signs at Wee Winks Square. He stated that he wasn’t sure why the ordinance was written the way it was. He stated that he hated the thought of going back to many businesses to make them correct their signs. Councilor Smith stated he liked the signs better than being on the roof. Mayor Morrison agreed. Councilor Smith thought the eye level signs would be more aesthetically pleasing.
Ron Forlano of 1378 Duck Road was recognized to speak. Mr. Forlano thought the whole issue was that the Planning Board was trying to achieve uniformity, however they found it could not be achieved with regard to signage. He thought the principle had to be taken out to allow certain signs. He thought if the ordinance needed to be rewritten to allow uniformity, it should be done. Councilor Caviness asked how angst could be lessened with regard to uniformity. Mr. Forlano stated it was a slippery slope. He wondered where the line was drawn.
Mayor Morrison clarified that Councilor Caviness was wondering how people would feel if the Town changes the ordinance to allow the current people to keep their signs. Councilor Caviness stated it was an issue. She stated she was worried about the people that were compliant versus the people that weren’t and their battle between each other. She stated that she was worried about the reality of how hard it would be to have absolute uniformity. She wondered how the Planning Board and Town would struggle with equity in terms of signage so as not to create any unfairness. She didn’t want so much latitude that a situation develops that would be more favorable for certain types of buildings. Town Manager Layton stated that there were certain things that make some buildings more attractive than others. He stated he wasn’t sure they could get at it.
Don Zerbe stated that when the ordinance was written, it was with the aim to have uniformity. He suggested making the ordinance simpler to allow people to be more creative as long as it doesn’t detract from the building. Councilor Caviness asked if it would be too subjective. Mr. Zerbe didn’t think it would. He stated that trying to achieve uniformity would be complicated. Director Garman stated it was hard to establish uniformity.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau thought everyone liked the eclectic look of Duck. She thought there wasn’t anything in Town that looked out of place or bad. She stated that she didn’t want the Town to become so uniform that it wasn’t diverse. Councilor Smith stated that there were very few signs in Town that were bad. Councilor Smith thought the visual reaction of a sign was where it was located and how it was lit. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau agreed.
Mayor Morrison stated that he was bothered by signs that have lights that shine onto the road at night. He thought they needed to be corrected immediately. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau pointed out that changing the lighting would be expensive. Director Garman stated that the lighting ordinance was amortized in 2006. Town Manager Layton stated that the lighting Mayor Morrison was discussing were specific to the signs. He thought they would fall under the sign ordinance. Director Garman thought he was correct based on the information he read. Town Manager Layton cautioned Council not to take on too many amortization schedules. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau suggested that the property owner be contacted about their sign having lighting that shines onto the road. Director Garman stated he would look into it.
Councilor Smith asked what the opinion was on back lit signs. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau stated they were permitted. Town Manager Layton agreed.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked if the owner of Scarborough Faire wanted to change their sign, the individual business owners would have to come in to obtain a regular permit or would the special exception be amended. Director Garman stated he wasn’t sure but the special exception would have conditions placed on it to address signs.
Mayor Morrison asked how long Sunset Grill’s sign has been in existence. Zoning Technician Cady stated it was there when she started working for the Town in 2003. Mayor Morrison asked if their sign has been illegal the entire time. Zoning Technician Cady stated it was. She noted that Dare County did not allow signs to be attached to utility poles. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau clarified that the utility poles were lighting fixtures internal to Sunset’s parking lot. Zoning Technician Cady stated she was correct.
Director Garman asked Council if they wanted the Planning Board to discuss the Waterfront Shops sign issue so it could be brought into compliance. Councilor Smith thought some of the signs were a problem. Councilor Caviness asked if business owners could have signs mounted in areas away from their store at the Waterfront Shops. Zoning Technician Cady stated they could. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau stated she would like to see the Planning Board address the issue, but thought it would be hard for them. Councilor Smith thought signs on the roof at the Waterfront Shops was possible unless the roof line was such that adherence to the ordinance would be impossible. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau suggested calling it the “total roof”. Director Garman pointed out that the roof was a number of structures that fit together. He stated that it might not project above the main roof but could project above the canopy or porch roof. Mayor Morrison suggested that it be read that it should not project above the highest roof peak on the building, so they would be permitted on the lower porch roof.
Looking at the presentation, Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked if there weren’t any signs on a roof and there was a sign that was permissible such as the Sunset Grill sign, would it be allowed on the roof. Zoning Technician Cady stated it would as long as it did not exceed twenty-five percent (25%) of the roof plane. Councilor Caviness thought the sign at the Barrier Island Shops was too big.
Director Garman discussed with Council and the audience business developments that have not obtained permits. He stated that staff would need to go out and talk to them. Town Manager Layton stated that some had ordinance changes that allowed them to come into compliance such as the Sanderling Inn; however they have not complied yet. Director Garman stated that he would have to review the plan. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked if he would review the plan with Council or would he let them know what the plan was. Director Garman guessed that some of the things discussed could be talked about at a subsequent meeting whereas some of the issues could wait. Town Manager Layton anticipated staff getting a final handle on what would come into compliance where everyone was comfortable enough to move forward with an enforcement process. He stated that the first step would be to talk with the owners so they could work towards compliance. He stated he would notify Council if that was the step that staff was prepared to take.
Councilor Caviness pointed out that there had been a number of meetings regarding signs with significant attendance at a few of them. She stated that it wasn’t for lack of people knowing that things were in the works or that they were in the wrong. She stated that they know they need to take steps to change but felt they may be pretending the issue would go away until they are forced to comply. Director Garman stated that when owners are contacted, staff will try to clearly state what their options are to help them work with the issue. Ron Forlano thought that communication would achieve results, but there will always be a small percentage that will not comply unless forced to do so. Councilor Caviness stated that it wasn’t fair that some people have complied while others have not when there were so many options available to them.
Councilor Smith asked what penalties were in place. Director Garman stated the owner would receive a notice of violation and then civil citations up to $500 per day per violation. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked if an owner started to take steps to comply, they would not be held to the amortization schedule since they were making an effort. Director Garman stated it would have to be worked out. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau asked what would be amortized. Director Garman stated that if an owner had two (2) free-standing signs, they would be amortized.
Councilor Caviness asked Director Garman if he was specifically discussing people who were illegal that were trying to come into compliance, that they would receive an added time to come into compliance. Town Manager Layton stated it would subject them to the amortization schedule in some cases. He stated that by tweaking a few things, they could be permitted by rules that existed at that time, meeting the proof that they had a permit but had time to come into compliance at the end of the amortization schedule. He noted that these were owners that did not have permits to begin with. He stated it was a way to allow them to buy more time to come into compliance.
Ron Forlano pointed out that the sign ordinance was enacted in 2004. He thought business owners have had more than enough time to come into compliance. Councilor Caviness agreed. She stated that Scarborough Faire, Sanderling Inn and Sunset Grill knew there were problems, but that they need to do the right thing. Councilor Smith pointed out that they were successful businesses and not stupid. Councilor Caviness felt they were playing the Town. Councilor Smith agreed with Mr. Forlano’s comments. He stated that something needed to be done as soon as possible. Director Garman stated that staff needed enough time to go after the illegal signs first. Councilor Caviness agreed.
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau stated she appreciated Councilor Caviness’ comments. She stated that the sign ordinance was completed in 2004 and that it has been a long time since it was in the spotlight. She pointed out that the community has not pushed the issue for change. She stated that there will have to be a re-awareness of the issue. She cautioned that everyone does not have the issue on their minds since it was so long ago. She stated that human nature dictates that some will try to put it off again.
Ron Forlano pointed out that Sue Cotellessa was out daily with a tape measure and camera and that everyone was approached regarding the signage issue. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau disagreed and stated that she was never approached about her sign. She stated that she wanted to receive a beautification grant and was told that she needed to come into compliance with regard to her lighting. Mr. Forlano stated that Ms. Cotellessa may not have had time to approach everyone. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau agreed. Town Manager Layton stated that the goal was compliance. He stated that the goal was to get people actively working through the process. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau suggested starting a dialog again. Director Garman agreed. Councilor Smith stated that the Town has the responsibility to protect the people that came into compliance with regard to their good faith efforts.
Mayor Morrison did not think the Town should waste a lot of time before moving to enforce what was currently on the books. He thought there could be legal problems. Director Garman stated that the sign ordinance could be re-adopted. Town Manager Layton stated he was not concerned but felt everyone should be aware of it. He thought the more compelling question was if Council thought there was anything that could affect Sunset Grill to get them into compliance. Councilor Smith thought staff should make sure there was nothing on the Planning Board level that would affect any outstanding situations. Director Garman didn’t think there were.
Town Manager Layton clarified that it was the desire of the Council to have the Planning Board take another look at the ordinance to make sure there weren’t any issues. He stated that staff could start a dialog process immediately. Councilor Caviness felt it was fine tuning. She stated that the owners needed to engage in the process and get started on coming into compliance. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau pointed out that the process may take a while. Councilor Smith had no doubt it would be done right. He stated that the owners needed to show effort to get the process moving.
Director Garman reviewed reader board signs with Council and the audience. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau stated that she would like some discussion regarding them at the Planning Board level.
Town Manager Layton summarized that Council wished to send the issues of porch mounted signs, the Waterfront Shops roof signs and the reader boards to the Planning Board for discussion. Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau thought the Planning Board could think about signage on the sound side of buildings. Town Manager Layton thought a whole new section would be needed for that. He suggested Council have a motion to send the issues to the Planning Board.
Mayor Morrison moved to forward the issues of porch mounted signs, the roof issue at the Waterfront Shops and the reader board signs to the Planning Board for their consideration.
Motion carried 4-0.
CLOSED SESSION
Mayor Pro Tempore Thibodeau moved to enter closed session in accordance with Section 143-318.11(a)(5) to consult with an attorney to establish or to instruct the public body’s staff or negotiating agents concerning the position to be taken by or on behalf of the public body in negotiating the price and other material terms of a contract or proposed contract for the acquisition of real property by purchase, option, exchange or lease.
Motion carried 4-0.
The time was 3:40 p.m.
Upon return from closed session, Mayor Morrison stated that the next meeting would be the regular meeting on Wednesday, March 5, 2008 at 7:00 p.m.
Mayor Morrison moved to adjourn the meeting.
Motion carried 4-0. The time was 4:43 p.m.
____________________________
/s/ Lori A. Kopec, Town Clerk
Approved: ______________________
_______________________________
/s/ Neil Morrison, Mayor